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Home >> General Discussion >> 2014 Revised Handicap
27/02/2014 09:18:30

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27/02/2014 09:31:01

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If there is anyone sad enough (like me) to log into the Y&Y forum you will see the predicable rants about the 2014 PY changes.

While its not mentioned in the rants the RS700 handicap has been revised downwards by 8 to 852.  It seems odd to me after all these years, that this year there is a fairly big change (in PY terms).  So whats changed?

Obviously its based on actual returns presumably largely from Hayling.  

Does this reflect whats been happening in handicap races at your club - Hayling folk?

27/02/2014 09:32:10

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Having trouble posting?

27/02/2014 09:44:55

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Yes, apologies for the multiple e-mails - don't know what happened?

27/02/2014 13:22:10

Mark Pollington
Posts: 17
The RS700 tends to dominate in the HISC fast Assy. Sat and Sun races with windward leeward courses, but we do badly in the general handicap events, which are generally long round the harbour excursions where we can't generally use the spini to good effect (eg: to run a bit  squarer or gybing to often down muddy chanel?) and have long tight reaches which suit the fireballs for eg. I guess it's these very occasional big fleet results that end up getting put forward? 

Bit of a shame if we don't race off scratch with the skiffs though, which from the HISC data seems fair.

27/02/2014 17:12:48

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So have you all got suddenly faster compared to the other classes?


27/02/2014 20:05:20

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Dominating the fast assy fleet? not guilty m'lud

27/02/2014 22:14:50

Ian Nolan
Posts: 143
Some food for thought...

I have the fun job of doing the returns for our club. Robbie, Mr Dacey and myself are effectively racing to a PN of 802 although the statistical confidence level is quite low at 0.2 (on a scale of 0.0 to 1.0) so we haven't changed our handicap number so far. The other major class in the club is the 2000 which is currently sailing at 1068 (vs a 1090 PN). We have the National champions from both these classes in the club so we're probably a reasonable benchmark.

What is interesting is that the strong fleets in the club all sail under their PN whereas the small fleets/individual sailors tend to sail well above.  In a relatively small club this probably has a pronounced effect on the calculations and the resulting recommendations.

I'm not sure how big a total sample size the RYA work from and whether an individual club (even HISC) will have a significant effect. After doing returns for 2 years now and having 2-3 700's racing 2-3 times a week, the club 700 confidence factor has only risen to 0.2 so I suspect the RYA must have a huge pool of numbers probably evened out over many years in order to confidently make these changes.

My head hurts now, enough statistics!



28/02/2014 01:08:18

Mark Pollington
Posts: 17
Jerry, sorry should have read your post more carefully.  In that case they have taken the Fast Assm. handicap results, where we do sail substantially above (or is that below these days?) handicap - "dominating" in numbers turning out and in results! The suddenly would be explained by the 700s originally having there own fleet and only more recently being part of the handicap fleet. Given 4 races a week and OK turn outs at HISC the data must out way most other clubs.

28/02/2014 10:31:10

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Thanks Mark

One final question if I may.   The PY numbers now suggest the RS700 is Marginally faster than the Musto Skiff.   Do you have any (Musto's) racing at Hayling and does your experience support this, Presumably Hayling will stick to its current numbers?

Many thanks


28/02/2014 14:38:47

Mark Pollington
Posts: 17
Jerry, there aren't enough Skiffs sailing at HISC to be certain. When Nubbsy is out it is very difficult to beat him. I can sail as fast in a straight line, but he is just a better sailor... time on the water and as per your comment on the battens, we are not getting younger! Having said that there are occasions when other Skiffs come out that are left behind.  I would "want" the skiff and 700 handicaps to be the same as the boats are so similar in character that they fit in the boat on boat battle that goes.  Handicap racing is comparatively less interesting isn't it!

14/03/2014 21:47:33

Posts: 18
Sorry chaps, but the Thornbury return is also lower than the official PY. PYS spewed out a number of 827 for the 3 of us, and with a confidence factor of 0.5.
In our case, with the exception of one of our Fireball sailors the best sailors in the fast handicap fleet are generally our 700 sailors.
That said we didnt really get much racing in last year, as I was mainly sailing my Graduate, John was sailing his RS200 and Tim sold his 700!!!!!

18/04/2014 19:24:27

Neil Ashby
Posts: 43
Our current py is just ridiculous !!!
We should be the same as the musto skiff or slightly slower
I can't beat Merlin rockets or even get close to them most days on our new py
Why has it gone down ??

20/04/2014 19:30:37

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Yes Neil, its bizarre, particularly such a big change after so long.  Why has it changed?  I guess look to Ian and Paul's comments below.  What they are saying is that at a calculated handicap of 802 (Snet) and 827 (Thornbury) they are sailing significantly faster (boat for boat) or about the same as the RS800 on 820.  

20/04/2014 19:59:29

Neil Ashby
Posts: 43
I wonder if the returns should include the type of courses sailed as well ?,
At Shoreham we sail standard sausage triangle , but 80 percent of the time the triangle is so tight that I can't fly the kite on one of the legs and so I get hammered on handicap , where as I think if at hisc in the bay it's a standard windward leeward course and amplifying apparent wind sailing characteristics of an asymmetric boat
Do we not get the chance to reject or appeal against this huge decrease in py number ?

20/04/2014 21:37:05

Posts: 18
We tend to end up sailing either rectangular or very long triangles allowing us to really let rip with the kite up. It's pretty clear looking at our club returns, that the 700s and 800s tend to sail quicker than the py, relative to Fireballs, 29ers and 600s.
The thing to remember though is that the RYA use the raw race times to calculate the PY and not just the suggested numbers from each club, otherwise a small number of clubs could skew the data. 
One further point to make is that due to its current popularity the Musto is attracting lots of sailors with reduced ability who are spending a lot of time upside down. I'd suggest that most of us 700 sailors have got past the 50% swim to sail ratio, meaning that more of us are getting credible results, whereas the gap between top Musto sailors and back end of the fleet is pretty large. PY is after all the fleet average and not necessarily reflective of boat vs boat with same top end helm.

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